Legislature(1993 - 1994)
02/09/1994 09:15 AM Senate STA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE STATE AFFAIRS COMMITTEE
February 9, 1994
9:15 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Loren Leman, Chair
Senator Mike Miller, Vice Chair
Senator Johnny Ellis
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Robin Taylor
Senator Jim Duncan
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SENATE BILL NO. 237
"An Act relating to offenses involving delivery of firearms to
minors and to offenses involving possession of dangerous
instruments, including firearms, by minors."
SENATE BILL NO. 220
"An Act amending schedule IIA of the schedules of controlled
substances applicable to offenses relating to controlled substances
to add the drug methcathinone, commonly identified as `cat.'"
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
SB 237 - No previous senate committee action.
SB 220 - No previous senate committee action.
WITNESS REGISTER
Portia Babcock, Aide
Senate State Affairs Committee & Senator Leman
State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-2095
POSITION STATEMENT: prime sponsor of SB 237
1st Sergeant Randy Crawford
Alaska State Troopers
5700 E. Tudor Rd., Anchorage, AK 99507-1225¶269-5641
POSITION STATEMENT: in favor of SB 220
Margo Knuth, Assistant Attorney General
Criminal Division, Department of Law
P.O. Box 110300, Juneau, AK 99811-0300¶465-3428
POSITION STATEMENT: in favor of SB 220
Scott Coryell
P.O. Box 1044, Ward Cove, AK 99928¶247-2494
POSITION STATEMENT: in favor of SB 237
Mike McCarthy, Police Officer
Kodiak Juvenile Task Force
P.O. Box 2797, Kodiak, AK 99615¶486-8000
POSITION STATEMENT: in favor of SB 237
Oliver Burris
Firearms Instructor
2801 Talkeetna, Fairbanks, AK 99709¶474-0437
POSITION STATEMENT: testified on SB 237
Tom Scarborough
1676 Taroka Dr., Fairbanks, AK 99709¶479-3412
POSITION STATEMENT: testified on SB 237
Laura Jane Wineinger, NRA Instructor
P.O. Box 1111, Chickaloon, AK 99674¶745-2093
POSITION STATEMENT: in favor of SB 237
Craig Sandler, Director
NRA Law Enforcement Activities
Former Chief of Police
Washington, D.C.¶(703)267-1639
POSITION STATEMENT: in favor of SB 237
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 94-7, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN LEMAN calls the Senate State Affairs Committee to order at
9:15 a.m. for a work session, since there is not yet a quorum.
Number 009
CHAIRMAN LEMAN brings up SB 237 (WEAPONS POSSESSION/SALE BY/TO
MINORS) as the first order of business before the committee today.
The Chairman calls Portia Babcock to the table to present
highlights of SB 237 to the committee and to the audience.
Number 022
PORTIA BABCOCK, Aide to the Senate State Affairs Committee and
Senator Loren Leman, states SB 237 was introduced to address the
problem law enforcement agencies are having with juvenile weapons
possessions and with the misuse of weapons by juveniles. SB 237
will require parental permission for the possession of a firearm by
juveniles under eighteen years of age, and also that the minor be
accompanied by a parent or guardian when purchasing a firearm.
Penalties for violations would include, in addition to existing
penalties, driver's license suspension for one year on the first
offense, and driver's license suspension for two years plus one
hundred hours of community service on the second offense. There
are exceptions, those are delineated in the bill. They include
shooting competitions, marksmanship, hunting and gun safety
courses, lawful hunting and other outdoor activities. The proposed
committee substitute also includes changes to procedures regarding
juveniles who commit crimes with firearms.
Number 064
MS. BABCOCK states the committee substitute for SB 237 also
includes establishment of a permitting system for the carrying of
concealed weapons by qualified, law-abiding citizens. Thirty-three
other states in the U.S. have concealed carrying permitting
systems.
Number 070
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Ms. Babcock if the bill intends to exempt
organized practice connected to a specific event and unorganized
practice not connected with a specific event.
Number 088
MS. BABCOCK thinks the intent of SB 237 is that the practice be in
an area or rifle range where practice would normally take place.
However, she is not certain and will check with Jack Chenoweth, the
drafter of the legislation.
Number 134
SENATOR ELLIS asks if the Alaska State Troopers have a position on
SB 237.
Number 136
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Sergeant Crawford if the Alaska State Troopers
will be providing a position on SB 237, or if they plan to remain
neutral on the bill.
Number 138
SERGEANT RANDY CRAWFORD, Alaska State Troopers, testifying from
Anchorage, says it is his understanding the Alaska State Troopers
will be available for the committee meeting Friday, February 11,
1994, and will provide a position at that time.
Number 143
CHAIRMAN LEMAN announces the committee will switch to SB 220 (ADD
"CAT" TO SCHEDULE IIA DRUG LIST) while Sergeant Crawford is on the
teleconference. The chairman announces the committee now has a
quorum and is no longer in worksession.
Number 157
SENATOR ELLIS says SB 220 would amend the controlled substances
list for the State of Alaska by including the substance
methcathinone, also known as "cat". Senator Ellis claims the drug
is more addictive than heroin, more powerful than cocaine, and
easy, inexpensive, and extremely profitable to produce. Senator
Ellis states there is a committee substitute before the committee
in the bill packet that he hopes the committee will consider. The
committee substitute eliminates ephedrone from the original bill.
The correct word is actually ephedrine, which is a common drug and
a precursor to methcathinone. The other change in the cs is
changing methcathinone from schedule IIA to schedule IA, to be in
sync with the federal law regarding methcathinone.
Number 201
CHAIRMAN LEMAN recalls the "designer drug" legislation from a past
session and wonders if there is some generic way to name and cover
these future drugs.
Number 220
SENATOR ELLIS said the "designer drug" legislation came into his
mind also, when he heard about methcathinone. However, he checked
with the Department of Law and the State Crime Lab and they both
said methcathinone was not criminalized by existing statute.
Number 231
CHAIRMAN LEMAN restates he wasn't trying to think of a generic way
to describe methcathinone so much as a generic way to outlaw drugs
that will be developed in the future.
Number 237
SENATOR ELLIS does not know if doing something like that would
cause a problem with the court system: to be so vague and generic,
and perhaps the legislature cannot criminalize a substance that
doesn't yet exist. There is a balance that must be struck.
Number 241
CHAIRMAN LEMAN states the committee will change on page 1, line 1,
in the title, IIA to IA; delete ephedrone (should actually read
ephedrine) from page 1, line 7, and change the site in statute in
which this law would occur. The chairman asks Ms. Knuth where SB
220 should be placed in statute.
Number 254
MARGO KNUTH, Assistant Attorney General, Department of Law,
Criminal Division, states the department supports SB 220. Since SB
220 was introduced, the department has discovered that
methcathinone is classified on the federal schedule as a class IA
substance. The Department of Law thinks IA is an appropriate
classification for methcathinone. Ms. Knuth notes for the
committee that the statutory change should be to AS 11.71.140 (c)
(82). There are three different listings within AS 11.71.140.
They are subsections (b), (c), and (d). Ms. Knuth believes SB 220
would fall under subsection (c), but she will verify that with the
State Crime Lab.
Number 271
CHAIRMAN LEMAN adds that a conceptual amendment could be made,
simply stating that the language in SB 220 be placed in the
appropriate subsection in statute.
Number 276
MS. KNUTH comments that with respect to the broader question
regarding how the legislature could anticipate new drugs, the
federal government has proposed model legislation that tries to do
a better job of anticipating new controlled substances. She states
it is a complex, technical problem and thinks working with some of
the potential solutions would be a good project for the interim.
Ms. Knuth says it is fortuitous SB 220 has a good chance of passing
the legislature before methcathinone becomes a serious problem in
Alaska. She thinks it is a very bad drug for several reasons: it
is cheap, it is easy to manufacture, and the violence level
associated with users is frightening.
Number 294
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Ms. Knuth if she has any comment on deleting
the word ephedrone (ephedrine) on line 7 in SB 220, or does she
think it is just a technical deletion.
Number 297
MS. KNUTH states listing ephedrone (ephedrine) in SB 220 is
inappropriate, since it is a precursor to methcathinone.
Number 301
SENATOR ELLIS moves the amendments to SB 220, the amendments being
to delete the word ephedrone (ephedrine) on page 1, line 7; on page
1, line 5 to change the site in which the legislation would appear
in statute from AS 11.71.150 (b) to AS 11.71.140 (c) (82), or what
ever the appropriate site may be; page 1, line 1, changing schedule
IIA to schedule IA.
Number 314
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there are any objections to the amendments.
Hearing none, he orders the bill to be amended as noted above. The
chairman asks if Sergeant Crawford would like to testify on SB 220.
Number 319
SERGEANT RANDY CRAWFORD, Alaska State Troopers, testifying from
Anchorage, says he would like to work with the legislature on a
precursor bill which would address ephedrone (ephedrine) and other
drugs that are precursors to designer drugs. Currently the
troopers have no way to prohibit large quantities of those
substances from being shipped into the state, other than some
federal regulations which apply. Sergeant Crawford also believes
methcathinone should properly be classified as a schedule IA
controlled substance.
Number 330
CHAIRMAN LEMAN thanks Sergeant Crawford for his testimony and asks
if there is anyone else wishing to testify on SB 220. Hearing
none, the chairman asks if Senator Ellis wishes to move the bill.
Number 335
SENATOR ELLIS makes a motion to discharge SB 220 as amended from
the Senate State Affairs Committee with individual recommendations.
Number 338
CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objections, orders SB 220 discharged
from committee with individual recommendations.
Number 339
CHAIRMAN LEMAN announce the committee will return to SB 237
(WEAPONS POSSESSION/SALE BY/TO MINORS). The chairman calls for
testimony on SB 237.
Number 353
SCOTT CORYELL, Class I Federal Firearms license holder, testifying
from Ketchikan, supports SB 237. He did have some concerns about
sales of firearms to minors, but it appears his concerns have been
addressed. He urges passage of SB 237.
Number 362
CHAIRMAN LEMAN thanks Mr. Coryell for his testimony and assures him
that SB 237 will not have a problem passing from the Senate State
Affairs Committee. The chairman calls the next witness.
Number 365
MIKE McCARTHY, Representing the Kodiak Juvenile Task Force - formed
to address juvenile violence, Kodiak Police Officer, School Liaison
Officer, DARE Officer, testifying from Kodiak, says Kodiak
represents a diverse population, which causes tension due to
cultural differences, in addition to tensions caused by people
coming into the community from gang areas outside the state. The
Kodiak School District and the Kodiak Police Department are
striving to insure the school environment is maintained as having
zero tolerance for violence. Mr. McCarthy states the Kodiak
Juvenile Task Force is supportive of SB 237, particularly the
provision for forfeiture of driver's licenses for violations of the
law. Part of the DARE lesson plan is knowing what the consequences
of your actions will be. He also draws the committee's attention
to the Federal Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1990. He believes The
State of Alaska is in arrears in incorporating this law into Alaska
Statute. Mr. McCarthy notes the discrepancy in state statute
classifying the carrying of a firearm in school as a class B
misdemeanor, while carrying a switchblade, a gravity knife, or a
set of brass knuckles is classified as a class A misdemeanor.
Number 396
CHAIRMAN LEMAN thanks Officer McCarthy for his testimony and calls
the next witness.
Number 403
OLIVER BURRIS, a firearms instructor (primarily of juveniles),
testifying from Fairbanks, has questions about SB 237. Mr. Burris
wants to know if he will need written permission from the parent or
guardian for instructing juveniles and or taking juveniles on
informal hunting trips. And if SB 237 would affect activities
taking place on a private shooting range.
Number 416
CHAIRMAN LEMAN says he will try to answer Mr. Burris's questions.
He states the two requirements of SB 237 are to have either
parental permission for that activity, or, if Mr. Burris is acting
in his official capacity as a gun safety instructor, then those two
exceptions would qualify that activity.
Number 421
MR. BURRIS asks, if he were to meet with a juvenile at a particular
location to go hunting, if the juvenile would be at risk of
violating SB 237 while in transit to meeting the adult at the
hunting location if the juvenile was unaccompanied while in
transit.
Number 427
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Mr. Burris if he has the committee substitute
for SB 237 in front of him. Mr. Burris responds that he does not
have the committee substitute, just the original bill. The
chairman replies he will make explanations from the original bill,
since Mr. Burris does not have a copy of the proposed committee
substitute. On page 3, line 21, paragraph (6) of SB 237 identifies
as an exception travelling to or from any activity described in
paragraphs (1) through (5).
Number 437
MR. BURRIS thanks the chairman for clarifying that exception. He
asks if the proposed cs for SB 237 addresses concealed carrying of
firearms. Chairman Leman replies that the proposed cs does address
concealed carry, however, the committee has not yet formally
adopted the committee substitute. Mr. Burris notes he favors a
provision for registering individuals to carry a concealed weapon.
He favors registration not necessarily of the concealed firearm,
but of the individual carrying the firearm. He also would support
a modest fee to cover registration expenses and thanks the
committee for considering the carrying of concealed weapons.
Number 453
CHAIRMAN LEMAN thanks Mr. Burris for his testimony and calls the
next witness.
Number 454
TOM SCARBOROUGH, testifying from Fairbanks, says provision in law
for concealed carry is long overdue. However, SB 237 seems overly
restrictive in regards to carrying of firearms by juveniles. He
thinks there will be times, particularly in bush Alaska, when there
will not be a parent or guardian available to give permission to
the juvenile to handle a firearm. He is also concerned about what
can legally be done while travelling to and from and activity. If
a juvenile stops at McDonald's on the way to an activity without
permission from McDonald's, would that be in violation of the
provisions in SB 237? Mr. Scarborough thinks maybe the juvenile
should be allowed to also get consent from a person other than the
juvenile's parent or guardian.
Number 474
CHAIRMAN LEMAN states that, for Mr. Scarborough's first question,
permission from a parent that covers more than one specific
activity would certainly qualify, say if the child has a permission
slip from the parent giving the juvenile general permission to use
a firearm. The juvenile would not necessarily need permission for
each specific instance or activity.
Number 481
MR. SCARBOROUGH asks the chairman if he is saying a juvenile will
need to carry a card giving him or her permission to carry a
firearm. The chairman responds the committee hasn't clarified that
possibility yet, and he is not sure how regulations implementing SB
237 will be adopted, but that may be a possibility. Mr.
Scarborough states he is finished with his testimony so the
chairman calls the next witness.
Number 489
LAURA JANE WINEIGER, firearms safety instructor, NRA staff for
Alaska, testifying from Anchorage, thanks the Senate State Affairs
Committee for their work on the proposed cs for SB 237. She likes
both aspects of the bill: provision to register carrying of
concealed weapons and restrictions for juveniles carrying weapons.
NRA policy recognizes that there should be certain restrictions on
minors in regards to firearms. There are currently no laws on the
books which adequately deal with the criminal misuse of firearms by
juveniles. This bill would help solve that problem, while
continuing to allow ample opportunity for youngsters to pursue
lawful shooting and hunting activity.
Ms. Wineiger states the concealed carry permit system is direly
needed in the state for the protection of its' citizens from crime.
She lists several crime statistics for Alaska. She claims it is
unreasonable to expect a businessman or businesswoman to walk
through town with a handgun strapped around the hip. Ms. Wineiger
has taught personal safety firearms classes for many years, and
when women in the classes find out that they have no means to carry
their weapons other than in an external holster, they are
astounded. These women do not consider it safe to go around
carrying a holstered gun. Ms. Wineiger thanks the committee for
their help.
Number 541
CHAIRMAN LEMAN thanks Ms. Wineiger for her testimony. The chairman
announces that the bill will again be heard in committee on Friday,
February 11, 1994. If people have further testimony at that time,
or wish to listen in, they may do so. The chairman asks if there
is anyone else wishing to testify at this time. Hearing none, he
calls for a recess while the committee waits for Mr. Sandler to
join the meeting via teleconference.
Number 548
CHAIRMAN LEMAN calls the Senate State Affairs Committee meeting
back to order at 10:00 a.m. The chairman calls Mr. Craig Sandler
to testify.
Number 554
CRAIG SANDLER, Director, Law Enforcement Activities for the NRA,
former Police Chief in Nashua NH, testifying from Washington, DC,
says that while he was the Police Chief in Nashua, Nashua had a
concealed weapons policy for at least twenty-two years. He states
it is not his intent to tell the state of Alaska how it should do
things, but merely to convey a case-study of positive things which
can happen as a result of allowing lawful citizens of a community
to carry concealed weapons. While Chief of Police, he personally
issued thousands of permits without incident. During a twelve year
period of time he personally had to rescind two permits. During
1993 there was not one homicide in Nashua with a firearm, in spite
of having thousands of concealed weapons permits. This was found
to be true in other areas also, such as Florida.
Mr. Sandler states the NRA also supports the other part of the bill
regulating juveniles carrying weapons. The NRA agrees no juvenile
should have a gun in school, with the exception of range-type
activities such as marksmanship and gun safety and hunter safety
courses.
TAPE 94-7, SIDE B
Number 582
CHAIRMAN LEMAN thanks Mr. Sandler for his testimony and states the
Alaska State Troopers will provide their position on Friday,
February 11, 1994. The chairman believes the troopers will be
concerned with vigilante justice occurring and asks Mr. Sandler if
he has had experience with that type of problem.
Number 574
MR. SANDLER says in his experiences there were no problems with
vigilante justice type occurrences in Nashua. In fact, he believes
an advantage of permitting persons to carry concealed weapons is
that persons submitting to permitting are law-abiding citizens and
that rapport can be established between the police and the
permittees during the permitting process. He understands that
concern, but that problem did not occur in Nashua.
Number 566
CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Mr. Sandler what requirements existed for
receiving a permit in Nashua.
Number 563
MR. SANDLER replies the requirements were essentially a criminal
record check, finger-printing, a photograph, and a waiting period
to enable the police department to check in-house and federal
records. There was no requirement for proof of competency in
firearms use, although Mr. Sandler does not oppose that type of
requirement.
Number 556
CHAIRMAN LEMAN thanks Mr. Sandler for his testimony and asks if
anyone else wishes to testify. Hearing none, he announces that SB
237 will be held over until the committee meeting Friday, February
11, 1994. Also on the agenda for Friday is SB 267 and SB 216.
Number 551
CHAIRMAN LEMAN adjourns the Senate State Affairs Committee meeting
at 10:07 a.m.
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